Alecia: 0:00

I'm Alecia Vogel, and this is Tech Brat. On October 27, 1930, Gladys Mae Brown was born in Sutherland, Virginia, in the rural farmland of Dinwiddie County. In addition to running a tobacco farm, her father worked for the railroad while her mother, known as Ma Macy, worked long hours at a tobacco factory. Growing up, Gladys and her siblings chopped wood, cared for hogs and chickens, and managed a list of daily farm chores. On school days, she'd walk and skip three miles to Butterwood Road School, a segregated one room schoolhouse. Along the way, she'd count fence posts, not realizing that she was sharpening skills that she would one day use to calculate the hypothetical shape of the earth. Before reaching adolescence, Gladys had already made up her mind about finding a way If she stayed, she was destined to spend the rest of her life in poverty as either a homemaker, farmer, or a tobacco processor. However, there was no television, books were scarce, and her family never traveled, so she wasn't sure about her options. All she knew was that the top two students at her high school were awarded full scholarships to Virginia State College, and that's exactly what she set her sights on. In 1948, Gladys graduated as valedictorian, securing her place at Virginia State College, where she majored in mathematics, a bold choice for a young black woman at the time. Later, with a master's degree in hand, she began applying to mathematician jobs in Petersburg, Richmond, and Washington, D. C. While she waited to hear back, Gladys accepted a position teaching high school math at a segregated school in Martinsville, Virginia. One month into the school year, She received a letter from the U. S. Navy. Gladys had applied to a mathematician job at the Naval Proving Ground in Dahlgren, and the letter invited her to an interview. She turned them down after thinking about it for a few days. Firstly, she didn't have a car and couldn't find Dahlgren on a map. Secondly, segregation was unfortunately still alive well into the mid 50s. Perhaps they didn't know she was black and would send her home. A few weeks later, the Navy contacted Gladys again, this time offering to hire her sight unseen, based purely off of her credentials. In 1956, Gladys became one of only four Black employees at the Naval Proving Ground in Dahlgren. Shortly before she arrived, her future husband, Ira West, was hired as the second ever Black person at this facility. Together, they would go on to break new ground. Not just as pioneers in their fields, but as role models in a space where few people of color had opportunities. Over her 42 year career at the Naval Proving Ground, Gladys would quietly change the world through her contributions, laying the foundation for the technology that we now know as the Global Positioning System, or GPS. Today, billions rely on GPS to navigate the world, but back then, Her work was classified, her travel restricted and her contributions remained largely unknown. It wasn't until 2018 at the age of 88 that Gladys West was finally recognized as the mother of GPS. Today I'm speaking with her daughter Carolyn Oglesby, to learn more about Dr. West Journey from rural Virginia. to becoming one of the most impactful yet hidden figures in modern technology. Carolyn, thank you so much for joining me. Growing up, were there moments when you noticed your mom's affinity for numbers?

Carolyn: 3:46

So mom being a mathematician, it wasn't so much the numbers I noticed, it was the order and the logic. Uh, and, and she often says that math was the right field for her because of that. So mom's very, very organized, um, list. oriented. She, everything is structured. She sees life in that way. So my whole childhood, everything was very structured. If we went on trips, we had lists to show structure and logic.

Alecia: 4:17

When your mom decided to pursue mathematics, because she was really excelling in school and her teachers were really talking her up and stuff. Do you recall her ever discussing friends or family, perhaps? saying, Hey, are you sure you want to go this direction? Cause at the time, from my understanding, there weren't a lot of women, especially women of color going into science and mathematics. So it must've been a little bit of uncharted territory in a way.

Carolyn: 4:45

I don't remember her saying that anyone discouraged her. I know her parents encouraged her to do this and her teachers. So I think that my grandmother, Mamesi, Just really saw the goodness in mom and her abilities to do whatever it was. So I think the teachers encouraging her to go down this math field, I think my grandmother just supported it and knew that that was probably a good field for her.

Alecia: 5:12

So she goes to college, she pursues mathematics, and then she starts teaching. But while she's teaching, she starts applying for other jobs. Tell me about what happened with the Naval Proving Ground, because my understanding is she initially rejected their job offer, right?

Carolyn: 5:29

Right. So mom was offered an interview. Um, uh, Ralph Nieman was focusing on integrating the workforce at Dahlgren, and so he Uh, reached out to her for an interview, but at the time, transportation was very limited. It would be very, um, it would take a lot to get to Dahlgren. And mom felt that it was too much to try to make that trip and then not get the job.

Alecia: 5:56

So she turned down the interview, and then Ralph Nieman called her, and he hired her sight unseen for her to go to Dahlgren. She noted in her book how Ralph Niemann saw value in recruiting women and minorities who were often overlooked. How do you think her experiences reflect today's discussions around diversity, equity, and inclusion in the workplace?

Carolyn: 6:19

When I look back on it, I almost think that Dahlgren was ahead of time in that sense. They did not see anything wrong with integrating. They knew it would be a challenge, but Ralph Nieman really focused on integrating and really followed through after the minorities and women came on board. He made sure they were trained and were set up for success. He was not just saying, I want to integrate just to integrate.

Alecia: 6:51

And she mentioned in past interviews that she had never been around computers before being hired there. How did she approach learning something so new and futuristic for its time? Was there a lot of crossover between her strong math background and learning to program back then?

Carolyn: 7:08

I do think the math background helped, but mom threw herself into taking courses in order to learn the computers, the computer language, learn how to program. She just Always believed in education and she used that belief in education to help her to learn and to show that she deserved to be there.

Alecia: 7:29

From what I've read, your mom was the second female African American hired at this Naval Proving Ground. What specific challenges did your mom face as a Black woman breaking into a predominantly white male dominated space at this center, and how did she overcome that?

Carolyn: 7:49

So mom said there was not blatant racism. You know, people didn't walk away or anything, but occasionally in the bathroom there were looks, things like that, but for the most part people worked with her as a team. They didn't focus on the race, but the challenges came together. In the opportunities that she had, some projects she couldn't do because she was not allowed to travel or go into restaurants, things like that. So those things were limited, but overall, It was not a horrible experience, but there was racism. And the way mom overcame it was not to fight back or not to be nasty. She treated everyone the way she wanted to be treated. And then she always says that she worked hard to prove that she deserved to be there just like the next person. If it took more studying, um, joining outside activities to help, it to help with speaking, things like that. She did everything she could to better herself, to show she was equal to them.

Alecia: 9:00

Has she shared any stories about how the GeoSAT project evolved or what it was like working with her team?

Carolyn: 9:07

She hasn't said a whole lot of details, but she just would always say that she was so blessed to be working with many of the top physicists and scientists who helped her to learn. They worked well together and some of the people who are on the team, they are all, if they're still around today, they, they are all still friends. I mean, those are lifelong relationships that she had from Dahlgren.

Alecia: 9:32

So when did you personally realize the scope and significance of your mother's contributions to modern technology? Was there a specific moment that stands out to you?

Carolyn: 9:44

So, I learned when the rest of the world learned. I am an Alpha Kappa Alpha sorority, and so I was at the meeting where Mom wrote a little three to four sentence bio on what she did. And when she turned that in, one of the other sorors, Gwen James, came up to me and she said," What your mom did is incredible. Can I take it to the local newspaper, the Freelance Star, and can I tell them what your mom did?" And I still did not realize the impact of anything, and I said sure. And then when Kathy Dyson from the Freelance Star came over to do the interview on Mom, at that point I realized Mom's impact on the global positioning system. But growing up, everything was top secret, so we never discussed what Mom and Dad did on a daily basis at their job, and there was no extra curiosity because we lived on Dahlgren Naval Base and everyone's parents did the same thing, so no one was asking, what does your mom or what does your dad do?

Alecia: 10:54

I totally understand what that's like because my dad worked forensic, so he was like the CSI guy, right? So he can't just come home talking about every murder and stuff he's working on.

Carolyn: 11:04

Right.

Alecia: 11:05

But it would kill me sometimes. I'm like, I want to know, like, what, what are the juicy details here? Give me some top secret clearance or something. I don't know. What was it like for your mother to transition from living a quiet life in retirement to just suddenly receiving accolades from all across the world?

Carolyn: 11:21

I think mom was excited about it, but it took her a long time to really understand because when she was working, it was just everyday work. She was not doing anything that she thought was terrific. Her job was focused on getting the military what they needed. So when it had an impact on the civilian world, it took her a while to understand her role in all of it. She's been grateful. She's loved being in contact with some of the people she worked with and I think she enjoys being recognized, but mom's so humble. Some of it is overwhelming and So she just is adjusting, but, but she's appreciative.

Alecia: 12:09

While I was doing research for this interview, I came across your mom's story about Dorothy Bates growing up, who was another student at her school who was very adept at mathematics and heavily influenced your mother kind of indirectly. And when I was learning more about her, I realized that shortly after your mom was named one of the top 100 women by the BBC in 2018, I think that was in, in May or April, Dorothy unfortunately passed away just a few months later. So how do you think these two significant events, global recognition and personal loss, Collided for your mother and did Dorothy's influence weigh on her mind during this time?

Carolyn: 12:55

Yes, so mom actually went to Dorothy Bates funeral. She had kept in touch with her sporadically through the years, and mom, you know, that is one name that I recognize from childhood, but I never met Dorothy Bates. But mom was very saddened by her death, and she did look back over the journey they had in high school and going to college, and then I I actually have met one of her daughters through Facebook, but we have kept in touch and talked a little bit about Dorothy Bates and all. I hope to meet her in person, but yeah, Dorothy Bates had a great influence on mom's life.

Alecia: 13:36

Just bringing it back to Alpha Kappa Alpha, you're also a member, as you mentioned. You followed in your mother's footsteps. How has AKA influenced your own life and career, and what does being a legacy member mean to you?

Carolyn: 13:50

So yes, I am a member of Alpha Kappa Alpha. I joined in the graduate chapter, so I did not pledge in school. I never really understood sororities. I I did not have a keen interest in being in a sorority until I started as I grew up and I saw the things that mom was doing and then I became interested. So to be her legacy. It is such a blessing. When I told mom I was interested, she just lit up. She never thought, she never pressured, she never asked. It was just something I came to her. And then after I became a member, I remember I, I am more inhibited. And so I remember being very afraid of actually joining and one of the people who leaders told me that I would have sisters for life, that I would really, uh, appreciate it. And she was so right. I have learned so much. It's great personally, professionally, sisterly. It is just a wonderful opportunity to be a member.

Alecia: 15:00

How do you think your mother's AKA experience influenced the values or lessons she passed down to you both personally and professionally?

Carolyn: 15:08

I remember mom going to the international conferences that she had with AKA and coming back and letting me know how many professional, black professional women she was surrounded by. The one I went to had 25, 000 professional black women. And to be in their presence and to see all of the possibilities that people can do. I know it really encouraged and fulfilled mom, and I think that that passed down to me. I try to be the best that I can be in my professional life and my personal life. And, and, AKA is all about helping others. And that has been just a blessing. I see mom throughout her life. She was always involved in organizations that helped others and I try to do the same.

Alecia: 16:00

As Kamala Harris campaigns for the presidency, she often highlights the importance of her AKA roots. How did your mom react to the news that a fellow AKA member would be on the presidential ballot this November?

Carolyn: 16:13

Mom was just like all of the other Alpha Kappa Alpha members. We are so proud of her. And the one thing about Kamala is that since she has started her original campaign, she always referred back to Alpha Kappa Alpha. She attended the international events. She wrote letters. So mom is just very thrilled. Of course, we're hoping to see her in the president's office. I will say that mom was just Recognized in our local community, they are naming a new elementary school after her. And it is, you know, a wonderful honor. And Kamala Harris wrote Mom a letter commending her for that honor. And that is so special to Mom.

Alecia: 17:02

That is absolutely incredible, actually, especially since your mom has really highlighted how important it is to her to be such a positive influence for young women and young girls, especially, to have them follow in her footsteps. So an elementary school seems like a real Like so fitting.

Carolyn: 17:21

Yes. Yes.

Alecia: 17:22

Dr. West often emphasized the importance of mentorship throughout her career. What advice would she offer about finding a mentor?

Carolyn: 17:30

Mom and my dad I often went to various schools to talk to children about their career growth. And one of the things that mom says is to find a mentor. So when they're in school, whatever field they're interested in, whether it's STEM or something else, language arts, to find that teacher, to find that person who is in the field who can help them along the way to do the things that they need to do. And with STEM, there are so many activities that the fraternities, sororities, libraries, museums do to show the fun side of STEM. Mom did not know that, and she got involved with the Dahlgren Museum, and to watch those activities that the kids were doing that just makes STEM fun. And one that stands out in her mind was there was one where they used the GPS to trace their family routes. And that the kids were really excited about it and and that sparks their interest. So mom will say find someone, participate in the activities so you meet other people and Just keep reaching out. There's always someone to help you along the way.

Alecia: 18:46

When it comes to finding a mentor, and maybe I'm somebody who recognizes the importance of that, but I'm just not quite sure how to reach out. Like, how do you make those connections? Is it just a matter of just showing up to these events? Or if I'm worried about making a fool of myself by just asking, like, how would your mom approach something like this?

Carolyn: 19:04

I think most kids have some type of relationship with the teacher, so I think that's the first place that they should start, but if you are out in the community and you're at these events just trying to walk up to someone and just introduce yourself and say your interest, I think kids nowadays are a little bolder than we were and a little more, you know, I think you do have to reach out. I tend to be very shy, so I understand worrying about getting out there and asking the wrong question, but you really have to do it. Some of the activities make it so fun that you don't think of someone as that mentor. You just go up to them, and you're asking them a question, and then you form that relationship. Also, you know, Even working with your friends, because some of your friend's parents are in the field that you're interested in, so you know, where you're having conversations at your friend's house and someone says, I'm in this field, you know, ask the question. What do you do?

Alecia: 20:11

Yeah, like what's the worst that could happen, really? Your mother also wrote about feeling imposter syndrome, questioning if she was smart enough for her role. How did she overcome those doubts?

Carolyn: 20:22

I would say by joining activities such as Toastmasters. Mom did not like to be in front doing the public speaking, but she knew in order to grow in the job, she would have to. So Toastmasters is a part of Toastmasters, and you learn how to speak, um, You know, off the cuff or prepared speeches. By doing that, you gain more confidence. So, in areas that mom felt that she was not strong enough, she took the course. She took a lot of courses, and then she did her degrees. When she came to Dahlgren, she already had her Masters of Math, but she went on to get a Masters in Public Administration, and then a Doctorate in Public Administration, just to continue to learn.

Alecia: 21:09

Why the switch from mathematics to public administration? So public administration was the management part. In order for her to grow up into the management position, she wanted to have a firm background in government management. Did she feel like she was being overlooked for these positions without the public administration side, because I believe she mentioned in her book that her husband, your father, had already risen up the ranks a little bit as a, as a supervisor by that time and she was kind of like, hmm, what's going on here?

Carolyn: 21:41

Right, yeah, I think she was overlooked. Part of that was due to race. Part of it was due to being a female. So a lot, you know, she had a couple things working against her, but she wanted to just show that she was ready by doing these courses.

Alecia: 21:58

Dr. West suffered a stroke that impacted her physical abilities shortly after retirement, yet she went on to finish her dissertation in public administration and policy affairs at the age of 70, like really shortly after that. What motivated her to pursue such an ambitious goal so soon after her strokes and how did she approach her recovery while continuing to push towards this?

Carolyn: 22:23

She was determined to get her Ph. D. So, after she had the stroke, she did the rehab. She worked real hard, but she said, I am going to finish that degree. And so she did all the writing, and then my dad and my son and I, we all chipped in. So we were helping do some of the typing. We helped her get it to the publishing format. We were up late at night, and Trying to make sure everything was good. We went up there when she defended it and we were trying to get it into the system while she was doing her defense. So it was a family affair to try to help her get through. But after the stroke, her mental faculties were all fine. The only thing she had was getting her strength back in her, one side of her body, and she lost hearing in one ear, but other than that, she was good from the stroke, so she was able to finish the dissertation.

Alecia: 23:21

That's incredible. And then she had breast cancer right after that, too? Like, how, how soon was that? Breast cancer That was in 2011, so she finished her PhD, she graduated in 2000, so it was a little while after, but yes, she had stage 1 breast cancer.

Carolyn: 23:39

I'm glad it was caught, but man, she just, she keeps rolling with the punches, doesn't she? Right, because in 2002, she had a quadruple bypass.

Alecia: 23:49

Oh my God.

Carolyn: 23:51

So she has a lot of health challenges, but she, never let them get her down. And I think I've learned from that, that you just keep, Pushing through, you can make it to the other side. Her faith is very strong and I learned from that to keep my faith very strong.

Alecia: 24:08

There's a misconception that fewer women are in tech because they aren't as interested in these fields. How would your mom challenge this view?

Carolyn: 24:15

I know we've had conversations with others about losing young women in STEM in like the middle school. Because if they don't do as well on a math test or a science test, they are discouraged. And I think mom would, Just try to encourage them again to try other activities in STEM. Don't just give up on it. I don't think it's a disinterest. I think it is a lack of confidence. And I think that's what mom sees, that it's a lack of confidence in some of the kids that she speaks with in the schools. So it's just encouraging them to look at it in other ways. One of my son's best friends, his mom is a chemistry teacher. And she teaches chemistry for the high school and she makes it so fun. I told her if I was in chemistry and had her as a teacher I would have been interested in it so I think there's more than just making a bad grade on a test and then being discouraged and running away. I think we need to find other ways to help them.

Alecia: 25:26

I guess just to expand on this a little bit, with all the challenges that your mother faced, she seems steadfast at continuing in mathematics, not just giving up and becoming a stay at home mother. She was adamant, she was, she was meant to do this. Why was it so important to her that she pursue this career and not back down?

Carolyn: 25:49

So honestly, I think if people are The sciences did not offer the opportunities that it did for mom to be able to have a good life, to give back to her parents, to make sure that they had a good life, and to be provide herself and her family with a good, stable income. I don't think she would have pursued it. It, it, she didn't wake up and math was her passion. I think that because the teachers told her the opportunities that it afforded her, that is why she went that field. But she will tell you that when she would go visit one of her aunts, that home economics, really interested her. She was liking sewing clothes. She sewed all my clothes when I was young. She loves to cook. She's cooked all the way through. Those types of things. So, I think that if that had offered some career opportunities besides just teaching, she would have gone that path. But, because she was good in the math, she That is why she continued.

Alecia: 26:54

In your mom's book, I remember reading about cooking with Dr. Louise Hunter, who was one of her mentors and that she also boarded with throughout college. Do you have any stories about that that you'd like to share?

Carolyn: 27:07

So Dr. Hunter, Dr. Louise Hunter, and then her husband was also Dr. Hunter. Mom went to live with them her second year of college and she helped take care of their daughter. She learned how to cook more. She knew how to cook, but she learned how to cook more for a family. And she learned about caring for someone, but Mom also was able to learn from them academically. I know when Dr. Louise Hunter was working on her Ph. D., Mom went with her to UVA. to watch the child, but she was there to see Dr. Hunter working on her Ph. D., all of the steps that it did. And Dr. Hunter is actually the first black woman to get her Ph. D. at UVA, so she's a very special woman as well. So we, growing up, we visited the Hunters through the years. Mom kept in touch with them all the way through, and then I am friends with Dr. Hunter's granddaughter. So the relationship still continues. They had a very big impact on her life.

Alecia: 28:15

Wow, it sounds like you guys had quite the community that she developed over her years working. That's incredible. I can't even recall if I'm still friends with most of the people from, like, my first couple years of, uh, of working in software, to be honest. Oh, man. What is one thing that you wish more people knew about your mom?

Carolyn: 28:35

I think that many people see my mom as a very serious, hard working woman, always rising to achieve what she set out to do. But mom is also very much a family person. Family is just very important, extended family. So, mom is one of four siblings and her three siblings have died, but we still get together with all of their children once a year, and they all come together. Call mom, check on her. They look forward to meeting with her. They're all really part of her family and she cares deeply for them. Speaking of family get togethers, it's your mom's birthday this month, her 94th birthday. Congratulations, first of all. How are you guys planning on celebrating? So we're actually having a family get together with all of the cousins. So there are about 60 people coming. We will be celebrating on Saturday, October 26. So we, we usually have a family reunion in the summertime, but then it's so hot and everyone's getting older. So we decided to do it in the fall. And then we decided to do it on her birthday weekend.

Alecia: 29:51

What do you think your mother is most proud of when it comes to her work?

Carolyn: 29:55

I know the PhD is very important to her. She. She was determined to get it, and, and she got it. I think As far as on the job, one of the things that sticks out with her is the one time that they had a formula that they could not resolve, and everyone was working on it, trying to resolve it, and she finally found the answer and made it work. And I think that just solidified, I belong here, I can do it. What lessons do you hope that listeners take away from this interview? Her story. The lesson of perseverance. We're all going to have challenges along the way, and it's how we handle those challenges that help us to grow, that define us. And so I think that if you don't know something, learn it, read about it, take a course, talk to someone. If someone is treating you poorly, treat them with kindness. Most of the time they'll come around. And just be true to yourself. Just work hard. Make your goals. Strive for those goals. When you hit that goal, make another one. Don't become complacent. I think those are the values that she has that she'd like others to do.

Alecia: 31:09

What do you think has been the most surprising application of GPS that your mother has come across?

Carolyn: 31:18

When we go on trips, when my husband is driving, my mom is fascinated that my husband can just use the GPS to find a place to eat. and find a new place to eat. She just gets, when we get in the car, she says, you know, Barry, where are we going to eat today? And he'll press and he'll come up with all of the different places that we can go. So I think that that is one of the things she loves.

Alecia: 31:44

Has Dr. Gladys West ever been geocaching? Do you know geocaching? So basically it's an app or a website. It's almost like little mini treasure hunts. So somebody will go to their local park and they'll just hide a little trinket or a guest book or something in a tree. And then they'll just put the coordinates into this app and then people like me can look at all these different geocaches near us and then go and try to track them down. And so sometimes they're hidden in like fence posts. You have to really like go looking for them. Some, some of them are under stones. Okay. So, uh, It's a lot of fun, but it's a, it's kind of like a more fun, adventurous application of GPS, I think.

Carolyn: 32:25

So, yeah, so I do know what you're talking about, but no, she has not done that. Add it to the list for the family. You know, I was just thinking that does sound fun. I've seen people do it on TV and I just didn't realize what it was called. But yes, that is something that I might have to add in.

Alecia: 32:43

Well, thank you so much for joining me, Carolyn. It was a real pleasure.

Carolyn: 32:47

I just thank you for the Opportunity to talk about mom, you know, her story. It's one that she would like to continue. It's not focused on the GPS, but it's focused on just having that dream and pursuing it, going for it, and getting it. GPS is just a part of her story. She just wants people to understand that they can do what they want to do, believe in themselves. I think that's her legacy, and that's why she'd like the story to continue, and that's why I, try to do some of these interviews on her behalf.

Alecia: 33:25

Yeah, I came across her story and I was just so struck by it. There's parts of it that I can even relate to just as like a white woman, you know, being overlooked and underestimated sometimes, but she's gone through more than I will probably ever know. Thank you to her because I use Google Maps every single day and I would be perpetually lost without it.

Carolyn: 33:43

I would too. I don't read maps. And I didn't even know who she was. So, it's crazy to me that that's possible. I know I, I did not, I do not do maps, I never have, so when I used to go places, I would drive a certain distance and stop and ask how I get to the next distance, um, and then I would ask my brother and now my husband how to get somewhere. So GPS on my car. Phone and on my car is a lifesaver for me.

Alecia: 34:18

And it's true that your mom still relies on paper maps. She's kind of old school in that way, ironically.

Carolyn: 34:23

Yes, she says she knows what can happen if, if everything is not exact. You can get lost. She likes to see it on the map.

Alecia: 34:31

Cue all the GPS conspiracies. What does she know that we don't know?

Carolyn: 34:36

Right. Yeah, yeah.

Alecia: 34:39

Yeah, um, happy birthday once again to your mom.

Carolyn: 34:42

I will tell her thank you for having me.

Alecia: 34:51

As we close out today's episode, I want to highlight Dr. West's memoir, It Began With a Dream. In her book, Dr. West shares her life story, how she tackles all these various obstacles, and her journey as a trailblazing mathematician. It spans Everything from her childhood to when she was about 88 or 89 years old and receiving all this global recognition. I can wholeheartedly recommend it. You can find it on Amazon and I've included links to that as well as her Twitter and Facebook pages in the episode description. One of my favorite parts of her story though is how she met her husband Ira at the Naval Proving Ground. They spent 67 years together, supporting one another through life's challenges and inspiring each other along the way. However, since recording this interview, Ira has sadly passed away, and I want to extend my heartfelt condolences to not only Gladys West and Carolyn, but the rest of the West family. To honor their legacy, the Ira and Gladys West Scholarship now provides 1, 500 to college bound high school seniors. in King George County, Virginia. If you'd like to contribute and help further Dr. West's legacy, please visit the Dahlgren Heritage Museum's website. Those details will also be in the episode description. Thank you for joining me today to celebrate not only the life and legacy of Dr. Gladys West, but the first episode of Tech Brat! We're at minute 36, you haven't stopped listening, that's crazy! So thank you so much for that, I'm actually like incredibly flattered. The rest of the season, I'm going to continue to dive into stories of historic figures in the tech world. We're going to sit down with software engineers, digital marketers, startup founders, copywriters, and explore all facets of the industry. We're going to talk about everything from how job interviews are like dating to how the treatment of women hasn't really changed. Really changed that much over the last century. So it's found to be a little bit interesting, for more episodes and information about the show, visit techbrat. fm and until next time, I'm your host, Alecia Vogel.